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'The Training Division of XPD'
Crackpot Mailbox: Juan Stabone and James Regarding encounters with man's best friend
Mon, Sep 16, 7:49 PM (3 days ago)
I definitely call bullshit on this reported sequence of events, because Shih Tzus are microscopic and goldendoodles are definitely not living engines of destruction, but the alleged technique is interesting:
How anyone could hang onto the muzzle of a motivated pit bull long enough to finish the job is a puzzle…
During my tenure in the Training Division of XPD, there was a public hue and cry about our officers shooting a lot of aggressive dogs. We went to some lengths to put together a training video discussing alternate means of anti-canine defense. For one segment, we contacted a veterinarian who was also some sort of martial artist. He used his pet Rhodesian Ridgeback to demonstrate on, and that was definitely a Charles Bronson type of dog. He showed on video that you can’t do a judo/jujitsu “blood choke” on a dog, because most of the blood supply to their brain actually goes up along their spinal column, rather than through the carotid arteries. He also poked his index finger DEEEEP into the pooch’s eye to show that eye gouging was not on the menu – evidently dogs have no back wall to their eye sockets, and when you withdraw your finger, the eyeball just pops back into place. (I wouldn’t have believed that one if I hadn’t seen it.)
His opinion was that the best place for a stick strike was down on the muzzle, and the best place for a kick was up under the muzzle, because it is very loosely attached to the skull…which sounded like good advice when Rhodesian Rover was lying down passively. Probably a whole ‘nother story when – as Keith Jackson used to say – he turns into a “rollin’ bundle a butcher knives”.
Juan Stabone
Juan, first things first, does your last name derive from success with ladies or because you were dressed in the bad guy suit for XPD training and had K-9 hair missiles launched at you?
Onward and upward...
Dogs have been used successfully in war, exclusively by Aryans it seems, and I have fielded let's see, how many attacks, thankfully of none-war dogs, off the top of my head:
1-A Puerto Rican mutt and his handlers at age 8 I think, getting dragged by the wrist by the dog and kicked by the humans
2-2 Pitbulls on Walther Boulevard and Southern Avenue, which I fended off with a hammer and knee-pad bundle, punting one into traffic.
3-2 pitbulls set on me by a bantu who I believed to be armed with a gun, at Sinclair Lane and Frankford Avenue at about midnight on a Saturday night. I ran until they closed in, getting out of handgun range and drawing a 12-inch gravity blade and the man called back his hounds as they began to circle.
4-A pitbull attacked me on Sefton and moved to circle behind me after I drew 2 pens and clicked them. His owner, a young athletic ghost guy, apologized and kept the dog off of my as I moved on.
5-On Loch Raven Boulevard I was charged by a pitbull that leapt at my throat or face twice and I kept it off by stabbing it with my green umbrella, which bent.
6-8-Are the attacks I fended off with knife and stone recently in Utah.
Empty handed I have had three go-to's against dogs without a weapon, that I have drilled in the gym and in my mind constantly:
-Kick the legs out and then jump stomp the thing
-Punch the snout and lower jaw since it is there only weapon and I have two fists
-Let a pitbull hang on my forearm and break it's back over a curb, hydrant or fence, then grab its hind legs and bet the owner to a pulp with his dead dog.
With the knife I want to check left and stab left as they go high, shift and stab down as they go low. If they get my forearm I want to stab into their left lung to ease their dragging me [I wrestled with a boxer-pitbull for long ours and found out that the way he yanked on my arm I'd end up stabbing my own arm going for his throat.] Then rip cut their guts out, then cut their head off of my arm.
With big knives and short sticks I have always envisioned, against a four-leg, cleaving the snout. I'm pretty certain I'd take off a shepherd snout with a big knife or machete [I get three inches into wood] or break the upper or lower portion with a baton or stick. I do train these strokes, as dogs are generally braver than hood rats and come in low.
Again, the U.S. Police State prevents me from carrying a machete, with which I am certain I could cut the snouts off of multiple canines or keep them at bay. The point is, dogs know that humans can do bad shit with what they put in their hand. Just as the police are tasked with making sure I cannot defend against criminals, they are also tasked with making certain that dogs, an actual police state weapon, will have easy access to unarmed civilian prey.
Juan, thank you for your input and your work on behalf of my enemy—I wouldn't want to be taken down by a shit foe. I'd feel a little better about death by cop if the guy in uniform was a bad dude who could handle himself, rather than some bitch screaming and cussing and shaking while she tried to hose me down with her goddess wand.
I have been so deeply twisted by dog attacks as a pedestrian in a world of motoring dog parents and sadistic drug dealers, that it has shown up in my fiction. For some good fantasy dog violence try Reverent Chandler, in which the bad guys have the hounds and the Jericho Bone, in which I depicted dog violence and containment in the Egyptian famine of 1201.
Reverent Chandler: The Saga of Fend
The Jericho Bone: Fruit of the Deceiver and Forty Hands of Night, 2nd Edition Omnibus Collection
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KoanicOctober 9, 2019 11:56 PM UTC

Oh yeah, those moves make sense against a small dog. The military attack dog in the video was the length of the man whose throat he leapt at.

I assume your wrestling with the 60 lb dog was friendly. Did you try using your superior weight to mount and pin? That might exceed the bounds of friendliness in dog psychology. Dogs have no way to stop a roll from guard into mount.
responds:October 10, 2019 12:48 PM UTC

Yes, my problem with Chico, who liked me thankfully, was that his entire body could fit and spin between my thighs and shoulders even though he was somehow stronger than me. Of course, i'm no good on the ground with humans either!

Chico was such a cool dog, who actually ate a football, two cats, a rug, rusty nails, a dove in flight and would run and dive at a stream of water from Duz's hose at about 6 feet high and try to ride the stream with it pouring into his open mouth as he dove towards his master.

With a long dog I suppose a grapevine would work easily.
KoanicOctober 7, 2019 4:07 AM UTC

I saw a clip of a Southeast Asian crocodile trainer placing his hand in the croc's wide open mouth, which snapped shut. The trainer immediately dropped to a crouch, eyeballing the croc. After a beat, the croc rolled, but the man rolled with him. This repeated, until the croc got spooked and released him.

The man hurried off supporting his bitten hand, which I got the impression was floppy but still very attached.

So I reckon the principle with most bites is: roll with it. If getting bit zero times is unrealistic because you're outmaneuvered, then get bit once somewhere survivable, prevent the shred, and finish.

I reckon the man in the padded suit training the attack dog learned to pull guard so the dog wouldn't drag him around in his fatman suit ignominiously, but his method of preserving dignity also conserves anatomy.

Seems like a bracer for the shield arm would be a handy, light, worthwhile addition to one's daily attire, whether facing man's toothy best friend, or man's knifey best imitation. One or two shinguards might work.

Different strategies apply for big cats and bears, which have gut-ripping claws and skull-popping fangs. From the meager survival accounts I've read, seems that trading a bowie-knife sewing machine for survivable flesh laceration is the way to go. Maybe give up a leg's outer side.

Not sure how to handle boars, either, without a boar spear.

That doesn't look pretty.

I saw a French hunter take a boar charge with only a knife, and get the kill with a pack assist. He used his hands to force the pig's head down while sprawling his legs wide to avoid the tusks, and let the pig try to carry his weight forward without achieving an impale.

Getting toppled onto your back gives those low-slung tusks your femoral and abdomen, which can be fatal. I guess the idea is to topple and hamstring him, or let him pass underneath without goring.
KoanicOctober 7, 2019 12:38 AM UTC

> I wrestled with a boxer-pitbull for long ours and found out that the way he yanked on my arm I'd end up stabbing my own arm going for his throat.

Sounds bad. Maybe pull him into guard with the lung stab and then cut his throat while he's locked down. Tug of war is the human's lose condition.
responds:October 9, 2019 10:38 PM UTC

The toughest thing about dealing with this guy was that he was stronger than me at 60 pounds and so dammed small he could squirm within my arms or legs. If I had to fight him I'd shove my hand down his throat or break him on a curb. You don't want some little beast spinning in a grappling guard where he has throat and genital access. His owner, who was thrice my strength, would just snatch him by the neck skin with one hand and hold him up and away until he calmed down.
KoanicSeptember 21, 2019 4:54 AM UTC

a set of spurs might solve the ankle biter problem
KoanicSeptember 21, 2019 2:51 AM UTC

A wolf doesn't have teeth shaped right to sever a hand without some whipping around. Puncture, sure.

I reckon the stance when fighting a dog pack with a knife should be:

Knees bent, left leg forward, left forearm shielding, knife in right by hip in icepick grip.

Defend right ankle by stabbing behind low and ripping up, left ankle by stabbing through legs.

Defend left forearm by stabbing and ripping towards.
responds:September 22, 2019 12:34 AM UTC

The guy that has done the most work on wolf and dog attacks is a Russian Systema guy—forget his name.

You know, visualizing methods like this is an excellent exercise and doing so with dogs and people has actually worked for me when crunch time came, usually unexpectedly.

The rip cut should be most knifer's go to when defending against human and human size attackers who bite or grapple.
KoanicSeptember 20, 2019 11:25 PM UTC

I don't think a dog's bite force is what makes him dangerous. He's not a shark or crocodile.

Even with sharks and crocodiles, the epic destruction occurs when they roll.

What makes a dog dangerous is when he plants his weight back on all four legs and whipsaws his spine, shredding the structure of whatever anatomy is gripped in his jaws. That's why they love tug-of-war.

Hence jiu-jitsu is a human's counter. A human can never out-maneuver a dog on two legs vs four. But he can out-grapple a dog easily with 4 constrictors vs 0. And once a dog loses his footing, his ability to shred is gone.

A dog has an awkward problem when he needs to bite something on a human. If the left forearm is presented as a shield, he's likely to take it, because it's the right angle. This presents an opportunity to cut his throat.

A dog's other main target is nipping the heels. With a knife in a reversed grip, this move can also be anticipated.
responds:September 21, 2019 2:52 AM UTC

I have been told that a wolf has bite force enough to take off a hand, just like chimps can rip off your feet and hands. Also, despite their impressive bite force, pitbull teeth are nubs compared to wolf teeth. The thing with pits is that they pull you down and work well in packs and want your face and throat. That's why I'm prepare to sacrifice a hand.
TonySeptember 20, 2019 9:44 PM UTC

Thanks for the great info, Juan. This shit is good to know.
responds:September 20, 2019 11:39 PM UTC

At this point I just want to slaughter canines with machetes and clubs.
Bryce SharperSeptember 20, 2019 6:12 PM UTC

You can definitely NOT allow a pit bull to bite onto your forearm without losing your forearm. Even if you kill it, you'll need a crowbar to get its jaws apart.


Pit bulls have tons of concentric (closing) jaw strength. Not sure about eccentric (opening). This may be possible. Notice the pit bull mafia showing up in the comments to defend this breed that needs to be eradicated.

I think pit bulls substitute for a man for many divorced or otherwise single slutty women. I read about such a woman who was killed and eaten by her two pet pitbulls in Virginia. Happily, they attack their own owners half the time.
responds:September 20, 2019 11:39 PM UTC

I know a landlord who had a squatter sic a pitbull on him, who lost the two small fingers of the left hand when he used it as a shield. He was dragged down and then snapped each leg one at a time with his right hand, then dragged the pitbull that was eating his hand to a woodpile, where he grabbed a two-by-four with his right and turned it's head into pudding.

I have thicker forearms than this man does, so I'd take my chance if unarmed. If armed I don't want to give it a bite and would check and stab.
KoanicSeptember 20, 2019 1:50 PM UTC

This is ridiculous, but:

Once your left forearm is in the dog's mouth, you can wrap your right around the back of his neck and grip your left inner elbow with your right hand. And maybe your left hand onto your right arm. This secures the head even further. Then you can try to rip his throat out with your teeth. I think a dog wouldn't like that. You can get your shoulders up while doing this to protect your neck from a pack.

It's too late at night, and I read too much Jack London.
KoanicSeptember 20, 2019 2:35 AM UTC

I saw an impressive demonstration in handling an attack dog. The man in the padded suit received a charge thusly:

Present forearm for mouth

Receive charge, falling backward into guard, so the dog doesn't have leverage to whiplash

The man was not trying to hurt his animal, but I imagine the next step would be to roll into mount, expose the dog's throat by posting on the bitten forearm, and destroy the throat with hand-heel strikes. A dog might surrender on his belly with his throat attacked, anyway.
responds:September 20, 2019 3:43 AM UTC

Manipulating that submissive response seems like a good idea.