James,
I am a late twenties white male with an extensive karate and kickboxing background with high school wrestling experience. I'm 6 foot 1 185 and currently I train students in my garage gym at a variety of martial arts including boxing. My question is this: how do you counter the ghetto boxing style, the laid-back jump in boxing style you see on worldstar and YouTube?
Boxing is admittedly my weakest discipline and were this to be a kickboxing and or street fight when the kids do this I simply hit a single and take them down or kick there legs out due to them being off balance. In boxing however I occasionally get suckered in to their game and pay for it via head trauma.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Sean Glass
Thank you for the question Sean.
On a cultural level, this is a sad question. There was once a rich boxing tradition among African Americans. This is no more. In the 1970s every black family had a man who boxed competitively, and imparted some little bit of this to his relatives. Today, there is nothing but an ethnic duty to appear to know how to box.
Posturing Cues
Any time you see any of the following posturing cues know that you are not dealing with a real boxer but a guy who is trying to live up to a ghetto image:
1. flexing the arms forward in a rolling motion
2. jutting out the chin
3. making a fist and then holding the hands low [A boxer is more likely to keep his hands open, especially if low, as he does not want to get shot for making a fist.]
4. bending the knees and kind of sitting in an oblique superfly version of the horse stance
5. cycling the hands over one another while posing
6. posing period
7. rocking back and forth on his heels
8. raising the shoulders or pushing the shoulders forward and causing tension in those joints, which must be kept relaxed to generate power
9. puffs his chest out
Beware of the dude who does the following:
1. rolls his neck
2. stretches his jaw and clenches his teeth
3. tucks his chin
4. is not eager to fight [as he is already figuring out how much trouble he is about to get in with the cops or your friends]
5. keeps his hands open
6. keeps his shoulder relaxed and or naturally sloped
7. looks past you, just regarding you in his peripheral vision, which permits him to lookout for your friends and keep an eye on your hips and elbows as these will give away you actions
8. seems to get kind of sleepy when he should be getting amped up
9. if he is the agitated type he bounces around on his toes, maybe not much, but enough to prime his accelerators for action
Boxing Outside the Ring
I usually write on boxing for boxers competing against boxers. I encourage anyone I train or advise to avoid any and all fights outside of the ring. Fighting outside of the social bounds of an arranged contest—that can be sold to the cops as mutual combat that is not disturbing the public—is foolish.
Note that ambushing the dude who hit your sister is not a fight, nor is defending yourself against a mugging. A fight is a mutually agreed upon act of violent stupidity.
Look, there are two types of boxers on the street, the guy in the first video and the guy in the second. Deal with the pimp in video #1 by not messing with him. He employs the classic sucker punch of boxers I have interviewed. Mostly it’s just one punch, but this guy seems to have deep ring experience and instinctively ‘touched’ the drunk on the chin with his lead before cracking him. That is targeting. A guy with extensive ring experience can close his eyes and hit with his right whatever he hits with his left. This touch jab is radar, sonar—tracer rounds, door ram, and a flash bang grenade—for the assault team that is the straight right, and the left if you're still on the planet.
Now for the knucklehead who faces off in a ‘street fight’ as if he is boxing, when he is not, as this is a street fight. Sean, take his ass to the pavement and beat it. To accomplish this without getting your teeth knocked out, or getting clipped on the chin or temple and KO’d, use the MMA shield with open hand against the temples and elbows up. If he goes for the body catch his thumb with an elbow drop and then over hook his arms. If he punches high, shoot the single or the double or even slide into a Greco clinch and throw his ass. No pro boxer is going to pick a fight with you and then box.
If you found yourself, let’s say, facing off with the boxer/pimp and you were sober and had good reason to beat his ass, then keep your hands high, do not punch, and kick from the outside. Kick his leg when he advances or jabs. When he waits and stands his ground foot jab his pelvis or hip. If he goes for the clinch or wades inside to avoid the kicks go to your wrestling and take him down. His instinct to stay off of the floor, as well as his good balance, will actually help you set up the suplex. Play a waiting game until his leg cramps, and then shoot the double and drop him on his back.
Generally the boxer came from a bad area and does not believe in boxing outside of the ring. If he has a score to settle he will sucker you or use a weapon. He does not want to be shot or stabbed, which is what happens to really dangerous boxers who throw hands on the street with warning. Our second best Baltimore welterweight of the 20th Century [behind Vince Petaway who I cornered against in 2002], Eddie Van Kirk, was shot to death defending his house on the sidewalk a few years back. No one was going to throw hands with Eddie.
Specifically, with a dude your size, with kicking and wrestling background, you will smoke any amateur boxer in a match fight and take down most pros. Of course, if you don’t take down the pro, good night bro. As an amateur boxer whose specialty is fighting larger unskilled men, larger wrestlers, and larger karate men, and has usually avoided a loss, I would probably stand zero chance against you. The problem for the boxer in the mixed arena is dealing with a guy who can kick and grapple. I always lose that matchup, even against smaller guys. If he is just a karate man or just a grappler, since I have 2 years of wrestling and practice counter clinching, I have usually earned a draw against larger men of these types.
Do me a favor and don’t fight on the street Sean. Make a sport out of it or join someone else’s sport. When you have to take care of business either talk if the guy deserves it, or sucker him if he does not.
Good training man.
Knuckleheads on Parade
The second video is of the kind of wannabe boxer you seem to be speaking of. The bald guy is built better for boxing but is doomed. He flexed his shoulders, dropped his hands and stuck out his chin, and paid for it. Of course, the key to avoiding these guys is not to argue with them. If you do beat them they might shoot you later. The guy with the braids has a really thick head indicated by his wide set eyes.
The guy with the red hat in the first video is a clone. About 3 million clones of this 'dumbass nigga' type are currently embedded in urban America, this being a CIA/Budweiser conspiracy to keep the 50,000 'basass nigga' clones of the guy in the black hat busy beating easily replicated black ass instead committing more profitable crimes against Whitey Inc.
Wow thanks for the long and detailed response. I work in a third class city and see this type of behavior quite often. The sucker punch scenario seems to be the method of choice lately.
One more question if I may from a sport angle. The video below shows how the kids who come off the street box in my gym. Leaning back, wild swings, etc. Usually I will pepper the jab until they lean forward to swing and I count with a right upper cut. Any suggestons on additional counters and/or strategy until I break them of bad habits?
youtu.be/Kagxehx7DYQ
PS: For anyone who doesn't spend time amongst warring minorities his analysis is SPOT ON. Really good stuff.
Okay Sean, if you are fighting for your life and they are swinging, once you pepper the jab then use a cutoff hook or a shifting shovel hook.
If you are training these kids post the jab.
I will cover the posted jab in a brief article soon.
For shifting hooks and cutoff hooks look to the fighters from the Wildcard Gym like Manny and Providnikov.
I really appreciate the query Sean. I like it when the readers drive site content. It makes it more interesting for all of us.
The first vid you posted I saw a little while ago and wondered why any average joe would would pick a fight with a former world champion boxer known for his knock out capability without at least attempting to take him down immediately.. baffles me. Anyway, I agree with your assertions. Something I found funny, and is generally the norm; in the 2nd video the well spoken gentleman with braids didn't turn 'alpha' until he saw he knocked the guy out cold. He then proceeds to challenge everything in the area from the 'victims' friend to a chipmunk climbing a nearby tree. But where was all this confidence hiding pre-ko? It wasn't hiding, it never existed. He was just as scared as the other man, body language showed it, as opposed to the first video where Rocky didn't seem scared but calmly deciding in his mind whether or not to ko the aggressor, then followed by the calm of the 'another day at the office' mentality. No posturing, no yelling, just handled business and backed off. The braided man however definitely was exhibiting false bravado to elevate status post ko. I wouldn't be surprised if he never won a serious fight before let alone ko'd a man. I've always found it funny when guys do that even in pro fights.